a listee posted:
>"As backstory - I'm a beekeeper in all my spare time too.
>In that realm, we have specifically delineated three types
>of beekeepers. Hobbyists - Sideliners - and Pofessionals.
>To define those terms in beekeeping terms translates to
>framebuilders too. Hobbyists have 1-12 hives in or near
>their home. Sideliners are folks who've moved thier operations
>up a notch and have 12-200 hives and usuallly move them around.
>These folks are in it for the surplus income (not that hobbyists
>don't sell honey to friends and coworkers, but the goal of the
>sideliners is really aimed at generating a second income). The
>distinction between sideliners and pros is the "Second" income
>idea that sideliners have a day job or, in may cases, are retired
>and living on pensions. The pros are the folks running lots of
>hives, usually making money via pollination fees (though honey
>sales do contribute), and are dependent on that labor for their
>family income. I think they experience many of the struggles that
>pro framebuilders experience along with the added vaguery of dealing
>with living animals and general uncertainties of weather and such
>related to farm living.
>My point - - In teaching new folks how to be beekeepers, they are,
>for me, aimed at the hobbyist. I'm sure there are pros out there
>taking on new employees to "apprentice", but for my experience as an
>urban beekeeper, we're dealing w/ hobbyist. And therein lies my point.
>Trying to train a hobbyist to be a pro has it's drawbacks. That doesn't
>mean it's not the right way to do it for a professional having to earn
>a living. It just means that the hobbyist probably isn't best served
>by buying several thousand dollars worth of equipment to process a hive
>or two's worth of honey. I've been wondering if it would be useful for
>this list to delineate responses in a way that indicates who they are
>aimed at. However, I really think it is important for hobbyists to hear
>how the professionals do things. Not that this is the way that they'll
>be able to do it. But to see how it is done beatifully by someone who
>has logged hours and hours with the torch (or file, or mill, or whatever)
>and see how well it comes out.
>Another aphorism that the beekeeping community has is: "Ask 10
>beekeepers how to do something and you'll get 12 different answers".
>That doesn't mean that any of them are wrong. It's just how they do
>things, or have changed doing things. And their system holds together
>for them. As a hobbyist, I take from that what I can. Try different
>things, see how they work for me, keep what works, let the rest fall
>away. That has resulted in variable results for me. Some years I make
>lots of honey. Some years the bees die of disease in the winter. I
>imagine it will be the same with framebuilding. Some frames will have
>joint failure, some will last until I'm old and grey (wait... the
>grey part has already happened!!). I really appreciate this list,
>the time everyone takes to contribute, and the general respect and
>civility that is the buld of the discussion. To say "I've learned a
>lot from this list" would be an extreme understatement. I hope
>that this discussion will return to the fun of framebuilding."

my reply:
this is a great post. i have a few thoughts to add and
they are my opinions and not meant to alienate anyone
nor do intentionally condescend to the list.
j@hn, i know nothing about beekeeping, but if a hobbyist,
or even a pro sells honey, i'm sure there is a small risk.
what it is, i don't know.
i do know about bicycles. if one, only one guy on this list,
or anywhere for that matter, makes a frame that someone
ELSE uses, buys, or trades for, that 'framebuilder" now has
something in common with me: he's assumed all the risks
involved with making something that will be used on the open

and when you write (snipped):
>"I imagine it will be the same with framebuilding. Some frames
>will have joint failure, some will last until I'm old and grey."

that scares me to death. the very fact that it's a true statement
reinforces my belief that building a frame (for one's self...) is
one thing, but taking a cue from this list an parlaying it into
a venture that produces that second or twelfth frame is a
high(er) risk situation. it is why i pepper my posts here with
the mention of insurance coverage as being part and parcel
with being a framedbuilder, getting the experiences, buying the
tools, and "all that". i'm certain that some factions of the list
are tired of me use the word "insurance" in a sentence, but
i think the bar of quality is quite high, and anyone who makes
a bicycle that someone else uses affects that bar. to produce
without coverage is not pruent, and it bugs me to no end. as
noted, i don't know if this is analogous to the beekeeping, so
please chime in. and for those who don't have insurance and
are making that second or twelfth frame, tell me how you feel
about this pet peeve of mine. i can take the heat. to reiterate,
i think coverage is as important a component as is any tool
in your shop.
thanks for reading.