from a thread about the handmade show...

> I am a bit confused about some cities qualifying as "East Coast".
> For example, I know Philly is in Eastern PA and is within a hundred
> miles or so of the ocean, so thats "east coast", however, Pittsburgh
> is still in the same state but is a few hundred miles away from the
> Atlantic, so is that more "midwest" or is it still east?Where, geograph-
> ically speaking, is the cutoff of "east coast" versus "midwest"? I am
> sending out my "feelers" for 09 and beyond.I like the possibilities
> in a few cities in PA, Maryland and NY, although I think a virtual
> central point in VA might be the way to go...anyone have any feedback
> on the VA idea (ONLY)?

after one trip to the midwest followed by three to the far west,
it'll be a pleasure to stay in the east for at least three contiguous
shows. atmo east is anywhere i can drive in less than eight hours,
even though i might fly.
> When did we go to the Midwest?
er houston is geographically nearer the atlantic than the pacific atmo.
Oh, but its so far South, I thought it was "the south"
ct to houston = 1758 mi
sj to houston = 1888 mi
four years out there is plenty;
i say 3 years in the east min atmo.
well, you asked. hey - thanks for asking.
> Denver is my vote.
> Plus the added bonus of combining bikes with the fledgling
> North American Handmade Whisky show.And it is far enough
> away that the hangover has gone by the time I get off the plane.
i heart this cat.
so - after 3 years in the east, i vote for denver atmo.

dee-dub in 04 when we all began chatting about the show,
a mission statement, and what would be ideal, some of the
discussion touched on what my wife, aka the lovely deb,
had encountered in her life as a craftsperson attending similar
shows. here is one venue where thingswere perfect, and went
off without one hitch:

the promoter's site is here:

> See, thats what I am trying to avoid. Any other type of tradeshow
> would pay the big bucks, but framebuilders are always crying poormouth
> when it comes to hotels. I have to keep it "on the cheap" or risk
> losing some budget minded exhibitors and attendee's.
[Rant]read: the builders will come, no matter. the consumers
will come, no matter. after four years, nahbs is a brand, and in
and of itself, a draw. this is not about money or location. it is
the only place inthe world that folks like us can kibbitz. it is the
only place in theworld that message boarders can kibbitz with
the kibbitzers. so stop worrying about what a room costs; we
are not talking about the carlisle or the pierre, or even about
manhattan atmo. are you feeling me?
the only real consideration is whether (or not) you can reasonably
ask a large contingent of your booth takers to continue getting
on planes and supporting a fedex habit. [/Rant]
> Come to think of it, velodrome vicinity should be a strong
> consideration. PA would get my nod in that case.
thusfar, the vicinity has not been local-rider-body-count
specific.this is a show that folks travel to. it's not about
the weather, or the area's riding features, or the like. it's
all about what happens at the venue, and especially at the
anvil booth atmo.
> Theres a buttload of builders back east who havent gotten
> involved yet...I think they will be on this like a dog on a bone
> when we move east...but they will be missing out on Portland,
> which is going to be the best exposure yet!
it'll be even more enticing for the easterners that you are
citing (above) when you keep it in the east for at least three
successive years. ps why are there not parallel threads on
the listserve, frameforum,and on the nahbs website? it's a
shame to leave the exhibitors out of the discussion atmo. banana.
> I'm lost. Shouldn't the show be for potential or repeat buyers?
> I realize that without builders there would be no builders show,
> but isn't the objective of the meeting to attract people to buy
> frames from the builders? Or is this just a builders get-together?
> If the show is for the builders then it might make sense to consider
> cheap hotels, bars, a remote location, or who knows what (although
> I'm sure this is the case for all makers.) If it is for those interested
> in buying fine hand-built frames, then accesibility and a copious
> cycling community would make sense.
the show is for the builders; it was conceived on the listserve
as well as on frameforum dot net as a vehicle with which the
buiders would converge and spend a weekend sharing resources,
telling stories, and generally do whatever happens so that everybody
left smarter and more enthusiastic on monday morning. it was
conceived as a show at which there was (to be) no industrial-made
stuff, and no vendors who made frames before there were clients
for said frames,and certainly no one would be allowed to show if
their stuff bordered on being made in a subcontacting arena.
oh - and of course - it was for builders, not clothing makers, or
brake makers, derailleur makers, yada blah blah. oh, to have a
time capsule in houston atmo. atmo, that show, though small,
was the ideal. but what happened? well, it made no sense to
not let folks in, so the show was also open to the public, and
the rest is history.

the issue here is how does don walker, saint-in-residence
that he is, make money now that the original mission statement
has jumped the shark? heck, i certainly don't know. but the odds
have grown,the light shining on all this is brighter than ever, ya'
have corporate entities that wanna glom off of what seems like
a success story and even offer to sponsor it if we jump through
a few of their unreasonable hoops. hey - shut me up already.

the show is now its own brand. atmo, as i wrote already, it can
and will be a success no matter where it's held. i would even
place a wager on that fact.

but at the core of all this is that the show is of the builders,
not of the consumers. any builder that misses it will be missing
a possible chance to book most of the year's order from the press
and goodwill that comes from these 3 winter days. ironic, it is to
me, that folks are somehow worried about room rates and locations.
atmo, what walker has done is mapped out a formula in which mebbe
80% of the booth takers are either fledgling newbies (5-10 years or
less) or part timers, and his retreats have allowed these cats the
publicity machinery to become cults of personality if you will. as
noted on another thread, the message boarders, in turn, take all
the flicker sites and the youtubes, combine these with their own
accounts, and viola, guys are backed up 1-3 years without ever
having bought an ad anywhere or even having what some would
consider a business plan. no real harm, i s'pose.

well, what now? this thing (i can hear kate calling it
this sicilian thing...)
is huge, but it really is no bigger nor more important than a trekie
convention. i'm a believer. i have been since we started talking about
a show on neil's site in 2004. my primary interests are that it not get
(too) commercial and hence lose its roots, and i also want to see don
be able to make a salary from it. but the minute it becomes
interbike-esque, or if some cat offers to buy the property and
don leaves the helm, that interest will waiver atmo.
> I'm not saying that the original idea doesn't have merit, just
> that it never happened.
it did happen atmo.
> So what happened between Houston and San Jose, other than
> the event growing larger? (asking, not arguing) To me, they appear
> the same. But I wasn't at either so maybe I'm missing some nuance?
1) the need to make $$$
2) standards are lowered (or changed) for the sake of 1 above.
3) folks that have invested in this emotionally and intellectually
from day 1 start rethinking their priorities.

oh - and i am not refering to (only) myself atmo. btw, as i wrote
above, we (the constituants) have a listserve, a website, and a
forum on that website, and the show itself has a website. there
is also 1) a full cc email address field that often receives emails,
and 2) an inner circle of about 12 builders that routinely discusses
and er, shapes, some of the show's more in-your-face features.
so, my puzzlement is about why this message board is (now)
being used to table a discussion about something that is a year
away from a show that will occur in the winter of 2008. while it
puzzles me on several layers, one that is prominant is that through
several pms exchanged with a mod here, i was informed that the
board (and/or its host) did not see the value of this show and
would not attend.
mp atmo.
> thanks for the perspective... i've checked out the framebuilders
> listserv, but i don't post because i have nothing to contribute.
> That's your (meaning *all* the framebuilders, not just atmo)
> world and I just look through the window.
of course. it's business mike, nothing personal.
hyman roth always made money for his partners atmo.